Jan. 23, 2022
E6: Bombing the Turkish Economy - Part 2
This is Part 2 of a 2-part episode on the Turkish economy and its ongoing currency/debt crisis. In this part, we will look into some prescriptive options for Turkey and the lessons that the US and the rest of the Western world can draw from the Turkish experience.
Chapters
00:00 - Intro
01:51 - The Mechanics of Interest Rates
14:09 - Dealing with Economic Devil
21:36 - When the Chickens Come Home to Roost
32:46 - Ignore the Trees to See the Forest
39:46 - Thanos was a Shitty Economist
55:00 - Winning the Vietnam War
Transcript
WEBVTT
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Welcome back to Part II of our look into Turkish economics.
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In Part I, to set the stage, we talked about the differences between theory and practice of interest rates and inflation.
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So if you haven't listened to that or you need a refresher, I recommend you revisit that episode.
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Here in part two, we'll discuss the prescriptive options for Turkey and how those prescriptions apply to Western developed nations.
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To kick things off, here's final thoughts from Part I.
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Let's have a listen.
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Okay.
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Well, we just explained why classical theory doesn't apply here, based on the"Curtis LeMay effect".
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So you're probably thinking, okay, well, let's close up shop, we got it: Erdogan clearly is right, and he should lower interest rates.
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I mean, we just spent, I don't know how long, but we talked about all the underlying conditions, why he should be lowering the interest rates, it makes more sense.
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Well, actually, despite everything I just said, I agree with the classical economists, he should be raising the interest rates.
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Come on.
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Don't me.
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He always said: the scariest words in the English language they hear is"I am from the government, and I'm here to help."
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Welcome to"Come On, Don't Bullshit Me!", where we peal away the messaging of talking heads to get to the crux of today's issues.
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Well, first off let's, address the elephant in the room: as of the recording of this podcast Erdogan announced that he's going to guarantee the bank account of the Turkish Lira to Turkish citizens.
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It's basically the Turkish equivalent of a FDIC.
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And on this news, the value of the Lira shut up.
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Now whether this is gonna hold or not, I don't know, I doubt it will, my personal opinion.
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But what matters is the reality.
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But the funny thing about this though, is that again, we already, I established that Erdogan hates interest rates.
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And interest rates, it's not like the bank is like, you know,"Nomine patris et filii et spiritus sancti", and then the interest rates go up, right?
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Or I guess in Erdogan's case, it would be"Bismillah hirrahman nirrahim", and then the interest rates go up, right?
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Before the interest rates to go up, what happens is...
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It's different in the United States nowadays after quantitative easing, but generally speaking, for Central Banks and in this case for Turkey, what would happen is, to raise interest rates the Central Bank has to sell bonds, right?
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So what happens is, the primary dealers, or the main banks at the Central Bank, who have accounts at the Central Bank, give money to the Central Bank.
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So that money's removed from the economy.
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And in exchange, they get bonds, that give an interest payment.
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And those bonds, by virtue being bonds, are also not in the economy.
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It's like a savings accounts, right?
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And because there's less money in the economy, then presumably inflation will drop, right?
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That's what in the classical economics theory is taught.
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See, but that actually is not the case, because it's not like the bonds are being issued by the Central Bank.
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It's issued by the Treasury department of the country in question.
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So those bonds are already out there, they're already issued.
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So it's a question of are the interest payments going to be paid to the Central Bank, right?
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To the Fed.
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Which, because by virtue of that the Central Bank is effectively outside of the economy, those interest payments don't do anything.
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Or those interest payments are gonna go to the banks themselves, which actually are in the economy.
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And the best way I can explain this..
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I don't know why I keep going back to food or Italy, or Italian food, but anyway, you know about the espresso machines?
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So, let me give you a story about espresso machines.
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When I was stationed in Italy, we had a lot of downtime.
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And you know, that's not a knock against Italy saying, Oh, Italians don't work, so you got a lot of downtime.
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No, it just, as there is an expression war is, it's sudden bursts of chaos with long periods of boredom.
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So during those long periods of boredom, for some reason, I decided to read macroeconomics textbooks to try to understand the economy.
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But the way I kind of visualized the economics was staring at my surroundings.
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And for my surroundings, which was in the break room at the Command Center or the Ops Center, as we call it in the Air Force, was a barista.
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And he would fill out the entire Base's orders.
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Because basically everyone would come over to the break room and he would fill out all the orders of all the coffees.
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And me, being an American, not really being exposed to the Italian coffee culture, it was my first time seeing a proper, real espresso machine.
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I didn't really even know what an espresso was,'cause I was that culturally inept, but I would see, it's almost like an art form with the grinding of the beans and putting in the machine, and getting it with the pressing of the grounds and then the extraction of the coffee.
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And it was really mesmerizing.
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It was kinda like watching a classical music orchestra: it's simultaneously boring, but mesmerizing.
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So the way I was able to imprint the economy into my brain was basically that the entire espresso machine is the economy and the top of the machine, or where the coffee beans are whatnot,-- that's the government.
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And the amount of beans you put in-- that's what's going to go ultimately and turn into coffee.
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It's essentially what the Treasury department spends, right?
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The government, your government is going to spend, based on either, if it's a autocracy, that's dictated, or if your democracy, that's some sort of parliament or congressional laws passed, and that's how the payments happen.
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And this is kind of like what we were talking about with the government printing the bonds.
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Bonds, as we said, could either end up with the Fed or in the general economy.
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And in espresso machine, you have the multiple spouts.
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So generally you have two spouts, and with the two spouts you can either put two espresso cups and then fill two orders at one time, or you put one giant cup in there and then get both of the streams in that one cup, and then you can make doppio, as they say in Italy.
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So this is kind of like how, the way the bonds and the interest payments work, right?
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Because the bonds are being issued by the Central Government and not the Central Bank, right?
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There's a distinction between government and bank.
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So the central government is going to issue the bonds, based on whatever laws are passed.
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And the Central Bank is kind of like the barista in charge of putting the cups underneath the spouts.
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And by lowering the interest rate, what you do is, you're essentially putting two cups in there, where some of the money is going into the economy, like in one cup; and the other is, because of by virtue of the fact that you have low interest rates..
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And again, like we said, low interest rates means the Fed or the Central Bank in broader terms has bought a lot of those bonds, means, those interest payments are going into the Central Bank.
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And of course, then it gets recycled back to Central Government and essentially it is washed out, it's outside of the economy, right?
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Whereas when you raise the interest rates, those bonds are now, rather than being locked up in the Central Bank, are now back in economy.
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So in this case, it's kinda like with the espresso machine analogy, rather than having two cups for the two spouts, you're putting one giant cup underneath the machine, and both spouts are going to that one cup.
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The government payments of interest, payments are gonna happen regardless.
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Regardless of what happens with the Central Bank, because that's determined by law or in authoritarian regimes by a decree.
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And the only thing that Central Bank can do is divert those payments either into or out of the economy.
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And that's key point here is that interest rates are not raised by decree.
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Raising interest rates is done through the buying or the selling of bonds by the Central Bank.
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And all that does is divert already existing central government coupon payments, right?
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'Cause the bonds are already issued.
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The coffee is already ground.
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It's gonna come out of the spout regardless.
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It's either gonna go into a separate cup or into the drip tray, right?
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Or it's gonna go into the actual espresso cup, that's being served.
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Or in an economic sense, if the Central Bank raises the interest rates, that means all those bonds that were locked away from the economy are now actually in the economy and the constant interest payments that are being paid, regardless of it's in the Central Bank or in the commercial banks, the Treasury department of the central government is paying the money on the interest of these bonds.
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And now, because they're not locked away in the Central Bank, but actually all that money is being issued to the commercial banks, well, that's more money that's actually going to the economy and more money just increases the price level, so it increases inflation.
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So a higher interest rate actually, contrary to what classical economic states, increases inflation.
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And again, like I said before, this is perfectly evidenced by both Argentina and Japan as classic examples here of this.
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Argentina, they've raised interest rates, thinking classically that it's going to reduce inflation, but inflation has been going up.
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And Japan, again, the opposite, is that they've lowered their interest rate and the interest rates have been, uh, have been lower.
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Plus all the other things that we've been talking about with the price level increasing, because of the time lag of trade financing.
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So this is the thing that Erdogan is against, right?
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What he is saying is, he's against interest rates.
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And again, whether it's because of Islamic theory or not, that's immaterial, the point is, he is against interest rates.
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Which functionally means, he is against the Central Bank giving bonds to the economy.
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And when the Central Bank gives bonds to the economy, what does that mean?
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That means the Central Government, the Treasury department, rather than giving these coupons to the Central Bank, which is immaterial to the economy, that interest payments on those bonds is being given to the commercial economy.
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So by him saying"I am against raising interest rates", he is functionally saying,"I am against injecting money into the economy".
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But what is this buyback or what is this Central Government guarantee that he just announced yesterday, functionally doing?
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Well, he is saying that if the price of the Lira falls, well, I'm gonna give you more Lira to guarantee the conversion to the foreign currency.
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Well, functionally, that's exactly the same thing as interest rates.
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So this whole thing about him saying, oh, I'm against interest rates, well, he's actually doing the very thing that he's saying that he's not going to do.
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Which from a classical theory standpoint, the classical economists recognize, saying, yeah, okay, whatever, Erdogan, you can say, whatever the hell you want, but you just said, you're going to increase interest rates, so for us that's good news.
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And that's why the lira shot up.
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So he's actually doing the things that the foreign investors want to do.
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Now, all that aside, again,'cause this is just a funny little anecdote, but more broadly, again, like I said, despite the fact that classical economics is not applicable to the Turkish environment and raising interest rates will just raise inflation, is think raising interest rates is the right thing to do.
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Because like I said earlier, controlling inflation is not the end all be all of governing an economy, or managing an economy.
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It's about facilitating the goods and services and providing for the citizens.
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And right now with Turkish people, struggling so much with the shambles of an economy, they need capital flow.
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And again, the capital flow is not coming, because the foreign investors are not coming.
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Because again, because of the risky business and all the things that we've been discussing for this entire episode.
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So the only way to get the funding to facilitate the flow of the Turkish economy is to attract foreign investment.
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And right now, unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on your perspective, what that means is the Central Bank has to raise interest rates.
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Not because it's going to help with inflation, but because it's going to help attract foreign investment.
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Because right now what Turkey needs is foreign investment.
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Because the Turkish Lira is an ineffective medium for facilitating trade within the country.
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You need the foreign investment, unfortunately.
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And the only way to attract that foreign investment is to raise the interest rate, to match the perceived risk premium that is in investing in Turkey.
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We also could say politically, things that Erdogan can do, is become more liberal, less autocratic.
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But obviously you can see, that's a Total Order, and that's not really gonna happen.
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We will see that happening, when pigs fly.
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Now, all that being said, there are some other reasons, a lot of people write off, what Erdogan is proposing.
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As in, oh he's either being senile, he doesn't understand economic theory.
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Or because he's Muslim and he's just trying to create a Sharia theocracy and dismantle thee secular institution of the Republic of Turkey.
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And that's fine, we can get into conspiracy theories and all that.
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But there're a lot of economic reasons for why he is proposing these things, that we need to consider.
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Which may not necessarily help the Turkish situation, but will definitely help understand why he is espousing the situations that he's in.
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Well, one thing is that, like we just said that he needs to attract foreign investment.
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And in order to attract foreign investment, one way to do that, again, is to raise the interest rates to match the perceived risk premium.
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The other way to attract foreign investment is through currency swaps.
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And Turkey has been doing a lot of this with China.
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This is a part of China's One Belt One Road initiative.
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They are trying to increase their economic and political influence throughout the world.
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Good on them, every country has the right to do that.
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But the way these currency swap deals work is that Turkey and China are swapping their currency.
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And not only they're swapping their currency, but they're also swapping their interest rates.
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And we've got to look at this from the perspective of Erdogan.
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He has an election coming up in 2023, and he's a populist autocrat, so he relies on populism to get him forward.
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And with the economy the way it is, he either needs to improve the economy or find someone to blame.
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And also the 2023 election is actually very important to him, because again, as this moderate Islamist, or whatever you want to call him, but this"theocratic light" person that Erdogan is, it is no big secret, he detests Ataturk, the founder of the Turkish Republic, and more specifically, the secular institution that he built within the Turkish Republic.
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And 2023 will be the hundredth year anniversary of the founding of the Turkish Republic.
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So him being at the at the helm, being able to say at the Centennial anniversary of the Turkish Republic, you know,"I have restored the Islamic glory of Turkey", is something that's very much on his mind.
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So that's also, that's well, one of the reasons why from a rhetoric standpoint, he's really leaning into this whole interest is a bad thing, interest is haram, it is, not condoned in the Quran.
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So there's that.
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But from a functional standpoint, the economy as bad as it is right now because of the current Turkish Lira depreciation, it can actually be a lot worse.
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Because one of the things that Erdogan is doing is that whatever reserves-- Dollar, Euro reserves-- that Turkish government has, they are selling that to prop up the Turkish Lira.
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Obviously they are not doing good job, because the Turkish Lira is skyrocketing, but the point is that they're actually trying to prop up the Turk Lira by selling these foreign reserves, by selling US dollars to at least not make it as bad as it really could be.
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And right now a lot of economists are saying that, oh, well, Turkish reserves are diminishing, it's pretty low.
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But what they're referring to is the gross foreign reserves, the gross amount of US dollars.
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But if you take away the currency swap deals that Turkey has made over the couple years, they actually have a net negative balance.
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So while the gross reserve balance is positive, their net balance is negative.
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And that means removing the currency swap deals that they are having.
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So basically with the currency swap deals, that Turkey has made with China.
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For example, this summer they made a$6 billion, it was worth 6 billion dollars of a currency swap, where basically the Turkish government gave$6 billion worth of Turkish lira and the correspondent Turkish interest to China; and then the Chinese government would give$6 billion worth of Chinese Yuan, plus the Chinese interest rate to, Turkish government.
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And of course, how this works is that you have that foreign currency of your partner, which means now it makes it easier for you to facilitate trade.
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Of course, this is good in the sense that from both standpoints,'cause China is a net exporter, so they want people to use the Yuan so that they will buy Chinese products, and Turkey by, as we just discussed, necessarily being a net importer, they need to buy stuff.
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And if they have Chinese Yuan, they are locked in with that currency, so they can easily facilitate the importing of Chinese goods.
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But another part of this, again, it's not just the principle that's being swapped, but the interest rates.
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And if Erdogan...
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And again, the economy is already bad as it is, and people are suffering, losing jobs, they are already angry, right?
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But it could be a lot worse when Turkey does not have the foreign reserves to sell to prop up the Turkish Lira.
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So essentially, because he is refusing to raise the interest rates, the only way he can get foreign reserves, particularly because of Turkey being a net importing nation, is through these currency swap deals.
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And China, obviously, with the desperation of Turkey is in, China is in a pretty good situation where for the swap, they don't want a high interest rate.
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They're gonna obviously go with Erdogan and say, No, keep the interest rate low, because if we're gonna do these swaps, if you want our Yuan, if you want our foreign reserves, you need to keep the interest rate low, because we want to pay you a low rate during the swap deal.
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So that's another issue it's kind of overlooked right now is that, as bad as the Turkish Lira is, it could be a whole lot worse without the infusion of foreign capital through these currency deals.
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And the only way these currency deals, these other countries are going to give that to them is if they keep the interest low, because it's in their interest to have a low interest.
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So Turkey is in a really messed up position right now.
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Erdogan is stuck between a rock and a hard place, because he really should be raising interest rates to attract the foreign capital needed to kickstart the economy back up, but he can't because he is being held hostage by these currency swap deals, where the rates have to be low so that he can get the foreign reserves needed to prop up the Lira.
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Because if he doesn't prop up the Lira, the situation's gonna go from bad to worse.
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And then from the domestic standpoint, Erdogan also has considerations, where he's replaced the old oligarchy with a new oligarchy.
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And that new oligarchy is in construction business.
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Part of his removing of the old guard, if you will, was giving his cronies cheap investments in construction.
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And this is one of the things that even classic economists would say, is that lowering interest rates means you are obviously not getting as much of return as you would normally want from those bonds.
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So what does that do, that's a capital flight to other assets.
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And one of the primary assets that people give flight to is construction to real estate.
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And with his cronies, the oligarchy that he's created revolves around construction, so for the past decade or so, there's been constant construction projects going around all over Turkey and Istanbul right now.
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There's so many, I don't know how true this is, but people are saying that there's more skyscrapers in Istanbul, than in any country or any city in Europe or America, which is freaking insane.
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And most of these construction projects, they are empty.
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Now, this is another situation that we're seeing in the middle east and China as well, is that a lot of these wealthy investors that wanted to park their wealth, parked it in dubious real estate investments.
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And a lot of skyscrapers or what have you, are half constructed, because they just take the money and run.
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And that situation is no different in Turkey.
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And specifically in Istanbul, they had tons of construction projects, and with the fact that a low interest rate boosts the value of that real estate.
00:23:23.530 --> 00:23:30.720
Because again, there's a capital flight from, from fixed assets, from bonds, to real estate.
00:23:31.500 --> 00:23:38.400
And if Erdogan is going to stay in power, he obviously needs to satisfy his cronies, his oligarchy.
00:23:38.579 --> 00:24:03.160
And with that oligarchy being centered around construction, well, not only do they rely on the low interest rates from a speculative standpoint, because people are more likely to invest in their construction projects, but also again, going back to that revolving debt nature is that they're constantly relying on new debt on new domestic debt in this case, because these are just domestic construction projects.
00:24:03.819 --> 00:24:14.829
And because they're not actually collecting any returns from these dubious construction projects, because they're just sitting there empty, they need to finance their wealth with revolving credit.
00:24:15.170 --> 00:24:21.990
And increasing the interest rates is only going to increase the cost of that revolving credit to fuel their own wealth.
00:24:22.690 --> 00:24:31.660
So that's another aspect of why from a more real politics standpoint of why Erdogan is refusing to increase the interest rates.
00:24:32.920 --> 00:24:46.170
And the other issue, again going back to the populous nature of his political campaign, is that in appealing to populism in Turkey, what Erdogan has done over the past decade or two is...
00:24:46.990 --> 00:24:55.609
He was the former mayor of Istanbul, and it has always been a thorn on his eye that his own city wouldn't support him.
00:24:56.029 --> 00:25:12.480
So what he wanted to do was flood Istanbul with people from the countryside-- supposedly the poor people, the more religious types, the more pious of Turks-- to win, to basically control the seat of local Istanbul politics.
00:25:12.589 --> 00:25:19.440
Because essentially, it's kind of like a"Dune" situation: whoever controls the spice controls the empire.
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:26.000
Well, same thing is in Istanbul: if you control Istanbul, politically it's much easier to control the whole country, right?
00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:28.349
Because it is the economic powerhouse of the country.
00:25:29.130 --> 00:25:34.269
So he needed his own local people in the government there to facilitate all the things that he was doing.
00:25:35.289 --> 00:25:38.069
And by doing that, well, two things happened.
00:25:39.369 --> 00:25:51.299
One is that he encouraged the mass migration of countryside of rural Turks into Istanbul where Istanbul immediately ballooned in population.
00:25:51.339 --> 00:25:53.660
I think it doubled in population within a couple years.
00:25:54.279 --> 00:25:58.779
And Istanbul does not have the physical infrastructure to handle this.
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:06.099
So there's the political standpoint of him trying to flood the pious into Istanbul so that he could win those local elections.
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:13.329
But also there's no other aspect of it, is getting all these people to move to Istanbul, would finance...
00:26:13.330 --> 00:26:25.009
They would presumably move into these buildings, these new buildings there, that his cronies are constructing, and that would fuel the growth of their own personal wealth.
00:26:25.670 --> 00:26:45.359
But because obviously the real estate in Istanbul is already high, because it's a desirable city, and giving sweetheart land contracts to your cronies and then them building apartments and skyscrapers and having rural Turks, presumably move into them-- it's a good operation here that you can cook up.
00:26:45.859 --> 00:26:47.160
Of course, that didn't really happen.
00:26:47.480 --> 00:26:50.319
And a lot of these rural Turks became homeless.
00:26:50.549 --> 00:27:02.359
There's this phenomenon called"gecekondu", which means, it's buildings o r like basically shacks o r s hanty towns, that were put up in the middle of the night where r ural Turks were living.
00:27:02.609 --> 00:27:08.589
So you have like when you go down the highway in Istanbul, you'll see all these random shacks of just people living there.
00:27:08.690 --> 00:27:11.230
And t hese just popped over in the middle of the night.
00:27:11.230 --> 00:27:15.710
And that's what" g ecekondu" means literally in Turkish i s like"put up in the middle of the night".
00:27:16.650 --> 00:27:33.420
So that obviously wrecked Istanbul as the economic engine of the country, because just from a personal or from an individual person standpoint, the fact that the infrastructure of Istanbul couldn't handle this doubling size of the population.
00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:36.099
You look at the average Istanbul person.
00:27:36.450 --> 00:27:48.009
Usually it's kind of like in New York city, where most people in New York live in the outer boroughs, you know, they live in like Bronx or Brooklyn and then you commute to Manhattan to work, right?
00:27:48.010 --> 00:27:51.930
You take the Bridge or tunnels and go to work, and then you take the Bridge or tunnels to go back.
00:27:53.079 --> 00:28:03.809
It's kind of similar in Istanbul, where usually people lived on the Asian side of Istanbul and then would take the bridge to go over to the European side and work, and then come back.
00:28:04.740 --> 00:28:12.200
And it was bad enough that the population back in the nineties for Istanbul was around 8 million, which is the population of New York city.
00:28:12.700 --> 00:28:17.599
Not the metropolitan area, because metropolitan area is larger, but New York city proper is also an 8 million.
00:28:18.220 --> 00:28:21.160
And New York city has how many bridges and tunnels?
00:28:21.660 --> 00:28:22.359
At least a dozen.
00:28:22.539 --> 00:28:23.960
But in Turkey they only had two.
00:28:24.440 --> 00:28:24.440
Right?
00:28:24.789 --> 00:28:29.430
And then all of a sudden now the population of Istanbul is 15 million.
00:28:29.930 --> 00:28:35.150
And just recently they finally built a third bridge, but still it's, it's pretty bad.
00:28:35.410 --> 00:28:37.430
But not just from the bridge standpoint, but just normal.
00:28:37.900 --> 00:28:40.750
It's not like, you know, United States where these are brand new cities.
00:28:41.470 --> 00:28:44.789
Istanbul, Constantinople, Byzantium-- is an old cit.
00:28:45.619 --> 00:28:46.819
It's one of the oldest cities in the world.
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:50.420
So it's not like you have large boulevards where you can park cars.
00:28:50.869 --> 00:29:05.059
There was actually a Turkish article, were they were saying that if you lined all the cars of Istanbul in the streets, it would exceed by three times the amount of street available in Istanbul.
00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:10.890
So lengthwise, there's three times more cars than there's actual streets in Istanbul.
00:29:11.099 --> 00:29:15.369
Which means there's physically no room to park cars in Istanbul.
00:29:15.670 --> 00:29:16.329
And not only that.
00:29:16.630 --> 00:29:28.039
The traffic is horrible, and there are people where normally the commute back in the nineties, it would take you 20 minutes- half hour to go to work, now people literally are stuck up in traffic for two-three hours.
00:29:28.500 --> 00:29:45.240
So if your economic engine, the economic engine of the Turkey is Istanbul, but the people physically can't get to work or get back from work, because they're stuck in traffic literally a quarter of the day, well the productive capacity of your supposed economic engine is severely diminished.
00:29:45.910 --> 00:29:47.680
Plus that doesn't even consider the fact...
00:29:47.710 --> 00:29:49.559
Okay, forget about Istanbul for a second.
00:29:50.299 --> 00:29:51.279
All these rural people...
00:29:51.369 --> 00:30:00.160
Again, Turkey is not like some super industrialized or service economy-based country, like Europe or Western Europe, or United States.
00:30:00.440 --> 00:30:02.430
It's very much an agrarian society.
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The economy, I should say, is very agrarian.
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